joyeuxnoel: Livejournal/Vox/6A

Noël (

joyeuxnoel) wrote,
@ 2006-06-19 09:47:00

Current mood:	disheartened
Entry tags:	livejournal, rants

Livejournal/Vox/6A
So there's a ton of people signing the Livejournal Petition and honestly, I think it's the wrong way to go about things. But I understand why people want to sign.

Livejournal users are not adverse to change. Instead, we're all paranoid that everything we love will go poof. Yeah, we want the sparkly styles and features that work but your average livejournal user will be happy and sated if you give them 20 more icons. Truth, yo. Honestly, we just want things that will make better. And as for livejournal being marketed to teenagers, if you got Ljseek and look at the tag cloud "work" is much bigger than "school" and hell, "fan fiction" is on there as well. But anyways...

What really disheartens me is Vox:

http://www.vox.com/

Which is Six Apart's new blogging service which is set to launch 2006. Basically, they took all the cool things about livejournal, smushed them with a blog and screwed both their Typepad users and their Livejournal users.

I'll admit. Vox looks sweet. Vox looks like everything livejournal could be. Yeah, the layouts aren't the best but that's only on the surface. From poking around looking at "blog entries" and "neighborhoods" almost every thing has a livejournal parallel. From the recent comment aggregator to splitting your "neighborhood list." Livejournal could very easily get a facelift into Vox. It feels familiar. Hell! Livejournal already does everything Vox does. Vox is Livejournal just with a more standard "blog" look.

Now, I don't know what 6A's marketing plan will be for this. But I'm fairly sure Vox won't be free. Hell, Typepad is one of the more expensive blogs out there. I'm just... disheartened... To me, this is a slap in the face.

Instead of Six Apart telling the world how kick ass Livejournal is, they seem to have said let's take the good parts, let's give it a facelift, and NOW LET'S PROFIT!

Thanks guys. You're really winning fans here.

*sigh*

Hell, look at it this way. The petition might just end up working if 6A spends their development time on Vox (which will make them money) and lets Livejournal linger in the dust. Yeah, I admit I don't want the site to change into something I don't recognize but I don't want it to stagnate either. Pyrrich victory, yo. Pyrrich victory.

[EDIT: Actually, the more I think about it, if Vox doesn't have any support for community management, then Vox is nothing more than a gimped version of livejournal that fails utterly on expanding social networks. Either way, launch'll be interesting. ]

[EDIT 2: Comments screened out of courtesy to give anildash a chance to reply first. ]

(Post a new comment)

	selphish 2006-06-19 02:25 pm UTC (link)
	That's what I'm concerned about. 6A's blogging services are expensive as hell. Blogspot hosts as many blogs as I'd like for absolutely nothing. I did look at Vox, though. I wish that LiveJournal could have become a little more like that. (Reply to this) (Thread)

joyeuxnoel
2006-06-19 02:32 pm UTC (link)

I really can't imagine that Vox will be free. Even with ads, I can't imagine that they'd make it free. So, most likely, there's nothing to worry about since this will be an overhyped product that's far too expensive for its own good.

If, somehow, they did make it free... that's another matter entirely.

I did look at Vox, though. I wish that LiveJournal could have become a little more like that.

That's what bugs me the most. Livejournal could be Vox. Nearly all the functionality is the same. I mean, I can't speak for the code or whatnot but it seems to do everything Livejournal does. And I do like the layout. And the fact the Google ads don't look fugly as all hell. Hell, I'm almost certain someone could make an S2 to look exactly like one of the Vox layouts in a very short amount of time.

Although I do bet they have an easier way to manage filters.

I mean, I understand how they're trying to go for a different target audience but... I don't know. It would have been nice to see "livejournal" grow up instead.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	selphish 2006-06-19 02:40 pm UTC (link)
	Yeah, the ads actually look aesthetically pleasing. I didn't even notice the one on the front page at first glance. Yeah. I agree. See the site grow with its userbase. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	joyeuxnoel 2006-06-19 02:41 pm UTC (link)
	It makes sense because they're building it from the ground up and they had ads in mind when they designed it rather than mushing it somewhere in a layout that never planned for it... But yeah, just sigh. D: (Reply to this) (Parent)

	joyeuxnoel 2006-06-19 07:36 pm UTC (link)
	Yo. Someone from 6A left a random comment in my journal. Some of the comments are addressed to you so I figured I'd link you the comment thread. (Reply to this) (Parent)

anildash
2006-06-19 06:48 pm UTC (link)

(I work at Six Apart, but I'm just speaking from my own perspective.)

"Basically, they took all the cool things about livejournal, smushed them with a blog and screwed both their Typepad users and their Livejournal users."

How is making a cool new service screwing anybody on LJ or TypePad? It's just another option for people, and a lot of the goodness from Vox is making its way into LJ and TypePad. Seems like everybody wins.

"But I'm fairly sure Vox won't be free. Hell, Typepad is one of the more expensive blogs out there."

Vox will be free and ad-supported. TypePad doesn't seem that expensive to me -- it starts at about $3 a month if you sign up for the basic level for a year. That's pretty competitive with standard web hosting accounts, which don't include all the unique features that TypePad has.

Selphish, you say "6A's blogging services are expensive as hell. Blogspot hosts as many blogs as I'd like for absolutely nothing." Um, LiveJournal is free (with or without ads -- who else lets you choose about ads?). Movable Type has a free version with no ads. Vox will be free with ads. Blogspot is free, but you get lumped in with a bunch of spammers if somebody clicks the "next blog" link. I guess it all depends what you value.

And then genx88 says "It would have been nice to see 'livejournal' grow up instead." I think adding new styles and fixing UI that is confusing to most people *is* helping LJ grow up. But that's seen as "dumbing down" LJ or something -- I don't work on the UI team, but it does seem like they're in a can't-win position.

Anyway, we are paying attention and trying to do the right thing, but it helps if people don't assume the worst. We all use all the services (I actually have an MT blog, a few TypePad blogs, and my LJ and Vox journals), and we want them to all get better.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

joyeuxnoel
2006-06-19 07:33 pm UTC (link)

(I work at Six Apart, but I'm just speaking from my own perspective.)

Actually, it's great to hear another perspective on this. Especially from "someone inside looking out" so to speak. I'm not quite sure how you found this post but I do think it's cool that you took the time to comment. I appreciate it tons. And honestly, if I wasn't on the other side of the country I would have applied for a job at 6A by now.

How is making a cool new service screwing anybody on LJ or TypePad? It's just another option for people, and a lot of the goodness from Vox is making its way into LJ and TypePad. Seems like everybody wins.

Well it would depend on the marketing and business plan for the company in the long run. I definetly can't say I that I know 6A's plan but to me Vox seems like a merger between both platforms. And from the initial press it seems like it's going to match both services taking the best things from both worlds. Which is great. Which is awesome. It really is.

However, it doesn't really doesn't say much for the future of the existing services. But I'm assuming that Vox will meet or exceed the existing services for Typepad and Livejournal. I'm assuming that Vox will do everything those services do and more. Which I admit is a knee jerk reaction and an assumption.

As I mentioned in my post edit, that if Vox doesn't have management for communities then I'd reevaluate my opinion of the service. Because then it'd be a blog centric community more than a social networking site. But I don't know the details. :( If indeed, Vox is all that and a bag of chips, then aren't both Livejournal and Typepad redundant entries unless they keep some form of individuality? (Why scour for a copy of Windows 98 when XP works even better?)

Vox will be free and ad-supported.

Thank you. That's probably one of the first official statements I've seen about pricing. I know this might sound stupid but Danga had better communication.

Now I know they weren't polished and they really didn't approach updates or anything from a polished Business point of view. But you have to understand that's what livejournal users are used to having. We're used to knowing the things that probably aren't our business to know. The things that probably Never Ever should have been said to the user database in the first place. Six Apart has a perfectly fine business model but it's not what most livejournal users are used to. So, I'll admit, maybe the users are the ones who do need to grow up. (I will point out that for about the first 20 pages of so of the latest

lj_design there was hardly any language even if most comments weren't constructive.)

Although, I will mention the complete disconnect that Six Apart appears to have with livejournal. For everyone it seems that their blog will always be first and foremost in their heart. Which is fine but it feels like the company misses on their userbase. I remember when 6A first took over and the employees didn't know the livejournal tags yet.

Selphish, you say...

Even your response to

selphish in a new thread which she might not see (which I won't address because it's aimed towards her) makes me blink and wonder if you use your livejournal all that much. Nested comments and comment threads are a foreign thing for blogs but vital for a livejournal community. Don't think I'm criticizing or trying to jump to conclusions or point out flaws, I'm just trying to tell you what my perceptions of your actions are.

Apologies, this got too long so I have to split it into two parts.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

joyeuxnoel
2006-06-19 07:34 pm UTC (link)

[Continued from here.]

I think adding new styles and fixing UI that is confusing to most people *is* helping LJ grow up. But that's seen as "dumbing down" LJ or something -- I don't work on the UI team, but it does seem like they're in a can't-win position.

Personally, I like the UI. The updated page for editing user info is very nice. The styles contest was really cool. I like the fact the FAQ is being updated. I like the idea I can find what I want on the top bar navigation. Personally, I have no problems with that but I do realize other people do. And it's not so much that they have a problem with the improvements as they feel that priorities are misplaced. I would love to see another site wide browsing scheme actually. I keep waiting for you guys to pop out with that one day. :D

I don't agree with the livejournal petition because it wants 6A to take a hands off approach which, well, is stupid.

Anyway, we are paying attention and trying to do the right thing, but it helps if people don't assume the worst.

Honestly? Hype and rumor can spread like wildfire but if we don't hear anything from the official sources we've got nothing else to go on. Communicate with us. Anticipate our problems. Some of the best posts in

news and

support have been the ones that answer the users questions before they're even asked.

Also? I'm it's frustrating as a company and as a person to be doing all this work and putting in all this effort only to feel like you're trying to keep a bunch of whiny kids happy and not always achieving that. But I do want to point out, the users are vocal because they love this site. Because they love the webservice. Because they only want the best for it.

Once we realize that's all you want too, I'm sure we'll get along just fine. ;-)

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

anildash
2006-06-19 10:45 pm UTC (link)

Thanks so much for the really thoughtful response! I honestly try to find places to talk to our community/customers because, well, I *like* doing this stuff. :) Call me crazy.

To be honest, we're deliberately not talking a whole bunch about Vox's business model and even the features because it's still *really* early. We're going to let the community tell us how things should work and when certain parts are done. Basically, it's a case of not wanting to promote somethat that most people can't even see, let alone make use of. If we were talking a lot about it, I'm sure we'd get grief for being a bunch of Web 2.0 hypesters, and that'd be a fair criticism, too. So we chose to get grief for being too closed, and that's a fair point.

FWIW, I was the first employee at Six Apart after the founders, and we've got a pretty huge tradition of talking about things that businesses aren't "supposed" to discuss with the community. From our business model to feedback on things like licensing, we really like having our community do a sanity check for us. Hell, when TypePad had some downtime last year, we let users choose how much they wanted as a refund. Would we rather have not let people down in the first place? Sure. But I hope we get points for trying.

"Nested comments and comment threads are a foreign thing for blogs but vital for a livejournal community."

Oh, I *totally* understand this. Believe me, I've gotten into lots of (kind-hearted) flamewars with the LJ team about this stuff. (There's lots of "Vox is great, but I'm never using it unless it has threaded comments." "Go die!" sorts of discussions.)

Truth is, Vox will never have all the stuff LJ has, probably. Like, LJ has Singles and a To-Do list and god only knows what else. I sure *hope* Vox never has all the features TypePad has. ("I need to customize my feed URLs!") But we will be sharing the best, most useful parts between all three platforms, and Vox is already starting to have its own distinct community.

Truth be told, I think a lot people took the statement of *fact* that LiveJournal is a predominantly young community as something other than what it was. LJ, to me, is more about people who want a community and are very comfortable with the fact that they're not "mainstream". (Whatever that means.) Hell, most of us on LJ are proud of that fact.

Vox is more for people who don't really care about technology, but want to connect with friends and family. My gut tells me that skews older and less techie and probably more mainstream. Is there some overlap? Sure. Does that mean OH NOES EVERYONE PANIC!!!1!

I don't think so. :)

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

joyeuxnoel
2006-06-20 12:15 am UTC (link)

I *like* doing this stuff. :) Call me crazy.

Stuff like that doesn't make you crazy at all. It makes you seem down to earth and on the level, and dare I say it, cool. It shows personality (more than your Prince icon) which counts for a long way. So first off, I thank you for your reply.

To be honest, we're deliberately not talking a whole bunch about Vox's business model and even the features because it's still *really* early.

Which is understandable and I'm sure you have projects and other things bopping about which may or may not see fruition. Or like Google, branch out everywhere and waits for the opportune time and place. But like everything on the internet, eventually someone's going to notice and probably not at the best moment.

Hell, when TypePad had some downtime last year, we let users choose how much they wanted as a refund... But I hope we get points for trying

I can respect that because it shows you care about your users. Also, I'm sure everyone on TypePad knew that 6A would do right by them. That you'd get everything fixed and make up for the inconveniences even if they weren't your fault. Honestly, I think the Livejournal community is still trying to build that trust with Six Apart. We're like that stray dog who isn't sure if you're really going to give us those table scraps or not.

Truth is, Vox will never have all the stuff LJ has, probably. Like, LJ has Singles and a To-Do list and god only knows what else. I sure *hope* Vox never has all the features TypePad has.

Again, I really appreciate the time you're taking to explain more about Vox. As a TypePad user, who doesn't want Vox to steal its thunder, I'm sure you can relate to myself, a LJer, who shares the same concern. I'm sure you can understand the intial skepticism especially since you actually have more of a sense of what's going on whereas most people in Livejournal land don't.

I definetly have a better view about Vox and 6A after talking to you. A little discussion can go along way. Which is difficult since the company is only so big. So I appreciate your time again. And I'm sure the rest of the users would benefit from the same knowledge you shared with me here.

Truth be told, I think a lot people took the statement of *fact* that LiveJournal is a predominantly young community as something other than what it was.

I think a lot of people, including myself, keep waiting for the other shoe to drop. We look at how MySpace is making the news left and right. And like any forum, speculation is rampant until there's Official Word. I'm sure things will settle since the new update hit

lj_design today. Yeah, the livejournal user base jumps to conclusions but I still think a lot of it could be mitigated if Announcement posts could benefit from a Focus/Sample/Beta Group who know what they're looking at is only a Work in Progress.

No one needed the 2,000+ comments. Not us, not you. Especially if you could somehow get a sampling of 100 or 50 frequent users beforehand. These people would be the ones to turn around and say, "Um, it breaks after 150 users and I know about 30 people who have long HTML in their bios."

Less mass hysteria. Same outcome. Like a public test run. (And I know the dev/changelog communities do that to an extent but obviously that's more of a coding under the hood thing than a public unveiling.) Because isn't this what it's all about? Communication? :) Why not let other livejournalers bridge the gap between 6A and the community at large?

(Whatever that means.)

Psst, that just means we're weird and like to pretend we're Teh Speshul. But hey, we have a goat for a mascot. Clearly we aren't normal to begin with. ;)

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

anildash
2006-06-20 12:53 am UTC (link)

"specially if you could somehow get a sampling of 100 or 50 frequent users beforehand. These people would be the ones to turn around and say, "Um, it breaks after 150 users and I know about 30 people who have long HTML in their bios."

Less mass hysteria. Same outcome. Like a public test run."

Heh, we were trying use lj_design as the public test run. Figure if we picked 150 people, we might miss something or those who weren't picked would say "they're playing favorites! it's censorship!" or something. I totally understand what it's like to be on the other side, I'm just also sympathetic to my teammates, who were trying to do the right thing and be open, albeit without communicating about it as well as we should, and got flamed.

We need a big "this is for feedback on works in progresss!" disclaimer on there.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

joyeuxnoel
2006-06-20 12:57 am UTC (link)

We need a big "this is for feedback on works in progresss!" disclaimer on there.

*laugh* You joke but this would probably help tons. Seriously. And you can tack on an "If means If!" just to make sure we get the message. :)

Although, I will say, it would also go a long way to say, "We're aware that This Feature and That Feature are broken at the moment and will be fixed if/when this goes live." Sort of like the "Known Issues" in the support box. It should cut down on the spam/repeat comments too.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

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